Australian Female#8 (Hariette) & Asian Male#1 (Yoshi) [Tape#9, Video#4]

Australian Female#8 (Hariette) & Asian Male#1 (Yoshi) [Tape#9, Video#4] Hariette: Yoshi: OK? OK talking about plag plagiarism? What constitute acts of plagiarism Hariette: well I I I guess we just want to make sure that um that people um know what plagiarism is so that Yoshi: euh Hariette: whe- when they produce work for the university they're not going to um Yoshi: just copy off someone else Hariette: |- yeah Yoshi: or something like that Hariette: cause I I think some people don't really know what it is Yoshi: actually I'm not too sure about what it is Hariette: |- [laugh] Yoshi: from what I know plagiarism is sort of like actually taking chunks of texts out of someone else's Hariette: |- yeah Yoshi: or something like that Hariette: yeah I think I think that's probably the main the main thing Yoshi: mhm Hariette: because the point is if you if you just take it out just copy it or Yoshi: yeah Hariette: just take it from a from another book or um something like that and then you don't say that you've that you've done it [laugh] Yoshi: yeah Hariette: you're not s- you you you're sort of passing it off as if it's your own work Yoshi: yeah that's right Hariette: and so the the person who wrote that they're not getting any credit for it Yoshi: eh Hariette: you're just cheating I guess it's cheating Yoshi: it's sort of cheating yeah Hariette: |- yeah well it is really Yoshi: but if I mean if you were to sort of like take some text and look at it and write it in a different way Hariette: mmmm Yoshi: that does that constitute plagiarism as well? or Hariette: yeah I know this is this is I guess this is the hard thing to try and decide what what it actually all the instances that that constitute plagiarism Yoshi: yep Hariette: so I think it does if you don't if you don't cite it you have to you have to say Yoshi: |- so you have to sort of like yeah put it in brackets as whose and whose work and Hariette: yeah Yoshi: put in references yeah Hariette: |- and the year or whatev whatever way you're referencing because I think e- even if like if you make like a precis you jus just take it but it's not really your idea Yoshi: yeah it's someone else's idea Hariette: yeah so if it's someone else's research or um someone else that something that they've some idea they've taken from from research or something like that then you're just just you're just write even though you rewrite it Yoshi: mm Hariette: you're still using their ideas Yoshi: yep Hariette: so that's plagiarism too Yoshi: but it's kind of hard isn't it I mean certain times when we actually write about something you actually have to go into the references and text before you can actually write about something Hariette: yeah! [laugh] Yoshi: so it's I think it's a really fuzzy line between plagiarism and creativity right I mean it's like Hariette: mm yeah it it's hard too like I I I'm not too sure about that but but it the I the other thing that's really difficult is that sometimes would you have the same idea Yoshi: yeah Hariette: and you say 'it's my idea' [laugh] Yoshi: 'it's my idea I thought about it but that guy thought about it first' Hariette: yeah so what do you do then do you sort of write it Yoshi: |- is it plagiarism? or Hariette: yeah oh I I think I think that you just have to cite it anyway because it's not exac- it is an original thought I guess Yoshi: and the other thing is supposedly you you discover something and you write about it Hariette: mm Yoshi: in in a way you think it it's like that for all you for all you know the there maybe another person half way around the world also thinking like you and Hariette: |-mm Yoshi: actually coming out with the same idea Hariette: oh it doesn't matter Yoshi: [laugh] Hariette: [laugh] Yoshi: so you see which comes out who comes out first Hariette: yeah I think I think that's the way it I think that's the way it works Yoshi: yeah Hariette: um I think you know you can't sort of you can't predict these sort of things but I think in terms of like if you're looking at um for for th- for this university um s- many students do get a-are penalised Yoshi: yeah Hariette: for for plagiarism and um sometimes really severe penalties you know um eve-even to being I don't think they actually get kicked out of the university I supposed it has to be really severe but certainly being um being given a fail for the course I've seen that happen someone's just copied bits Yoshi: yeah Hariette: text maybe they haven't known how to do it you know a first year undergraduate or something a-and you just Yoshi: I have friends who actually take the text book use the scanner scan the stuff in Hariette: yeah Yoshi: and just modify it Hariette: oh Yoshi: so that now that is real plagiarism Hariette: that is plagiarism Yoshi: yeah Hariette: and they get away with that? Yoshi: ah I don't know if they got away with it or not but probably Hariette: [laugh] Yoshi: but I guess if if you were to take a w- I mean if you're going to take someone's ideas and stuff and write it in your own words Hariette: yeah Yoshi: and and sort of like maybe cite references I guess they should be OK right they shoul- they shouldn't be plagiarism Hariette: no I think I think the important thing is that you're actually acknowledging that someone else has done this Yoshi: |- that someone else did it yeah Hariette: you know I think y- in terms of what you write depending on what you're writing I suppose like PhD or something Yoshi: yeah Hariette: depends on what you're writing for the for the university then what you actually write is the original piece of work but the ideas don't have to be as you're sort of getting them Yoshi: yeah Hariette: and you acknowledge that and then the actual way you put it together to come up with some conclusion it's your work Yoshi: |- yep yep Hariette: you know that's what I guess what they're really the- they're really just waiting to see if you can find the information Yoshi: mm Hariette: and um interpret that information Yoshi: mhm Hariette: evaluate it and so on so I think maybe maybe for some for some people think that that plagiarism's OK Yoshi: yeah Hariette: and um and I don't know it maybe it maybe in some cultures it it's regarded as perfectly alright not to not to have to cite Yoshi: [laugh] Hariette: I don't know in Indonesia I think it's quite acceptable Yoshi: in this I'm not too sure about that [laugh] Hariette: I'm not too sure either but I have heard I had heard that it's that it's you don't really have to mm if i y- you know people mention the bibliograrphy but they don't actually have to cite it in the text Yoshi: oh Ok Hariette: that you know you just sort of write and it's perfectly OK to just take chunks out of out of things so I think maybe some some students um who've come from other countries might find it difficult different Yoshi: |-yeah Hariette: a different idea of wha- what's regarded Yoshi: |- yeah Hariette: you know what's Yoshi: but I guess I wonder if there's a difference between different departments you know I mean just like citing of references and stuff Hariette: |-oh really? oh I I think so but I think in term plagiarism itself I think there I think there's a probably unified Yoshi: unified Hariette: stand on that I think people oh most lecturers know Yoshi: mm Hariette: unless you've got something or maybe you've got something off the internet or something like that Yoshi: |- yeah probably Hariette: they might not know [both laugh] Yoshi: things like that now it's kind of hard to to control plagiarism I mean unless Hariette: like it is um at the p- I guess the problem is that if we if we if we were if we were if we were to write something like for for students so that they are um aware of that what plagiarism is that it is it is a a serious thing um that they could be if if if they're if they're found to do this then that they could b they could be um given a fail Yoshi: [clear throat] Hariette: may even be thrown out of the university Yoshi: yeah Hariette: um Yoshi: I guess it depends again on the the student itself Hariette: |-like it Yoshi: himself or herself because some of them may not actually have the English ability to write Hariette: |-mm I Yoshi: fluently Hariette: mm Yoshi: so that might constitute because I ha I have seen cases in my Hariette: mmm Yoshi: my time because some of my friends their English is not as good as Hariette: mm Yoshi: you know not up to par so they can do sort of like take bits and pieces out of text to make their write up look good you see Hariette: yeah Yoshi: so Hariette: oh yeah I I understand that and I think think that's the problem is is that um maybe students need to be aware of the fact that they need to they need to cite Yoshi: yeah Hariette: the information as ha as ha as having come from somewhere because um that's where the problems that's you know that's where the they're going to get themselves into trouble because they want to make it look Yoshi: |- yeah yep Hariette: look good Yoshi: ???? Hariette: |- have nice writing style or something Yoshi: |-yeah Hariette: and I can it's difficult isn't it it's I I think to um m many Australian students or other students who've just come straight from high school they start in high school just copying um bits out text books to do have to do a history assignment and so they copy this out and find another book ooh that's good I think paragraph two Yoshi: |- yeah Hariette: and then when they come to university Yoshi: I think they're just not trained to write Hariette: yeah Yoshi: that way you see Hariette: I think that's Yoshi: |- that's the whole problem yeah Hariette: yeah that's the problem and I think also the idea too that they they want to get good marks and so they think if well if I just do this looks nice I like that Yoshi: [laugh] oh yes yes Hariette: I couldn't have written it so well I'll take that piece no one will ever know of course maybe that lecturer has been teaching this subject for years Yoshi: |- yes he might have seen Hariette: and he ???? Yoshi: |- and this looks familar work [both laugh] ??? Hariette: that's right yeah it does happen I I've seen happen from history but oo I'd find the book 'oh yeah there it is' Yoshi: but I guess writing comes with practice you know sort of like Hariette: |- true true Yoshi: I mean when you first come into a university um setting lecturers um expect some kind of some way of writing ah you know? Hariette: mm Yoshi: the way the way you write it Hariette: mm Yoshi: and some students actually have to take the time to actually adapt to the situation adapt to the conditions before they can actually write it Hariette: mm Yoshi: no? express themself Hariette: ?? Yoshi: so so I guess time also plays a factor in you know this kind of thing Hariette: well yeah Yoshi: creative writing Hariette: since it's as you say it- it's difficult to decide what is and what isn't plagiarism so I mean we can say I mean we can sympathise with students Yoshi: |- ??? Hariette: [both laugh] Yoshi: yeah Hariette: who take stuff because they run out of time because they don't have the English or whatever but I mean really it is it is just stealing someone else's ideas someone else's Yoshi: yeah Hariette: work well what el s- what else there must be other things we haven't thought of though I mean it's one thing just to copy stuff out of a book what else would be plagiarism do you think? I mean that's the most common one Yoshi: |- m I'm thinking I guess can it be like taking data from other one other people and modifying it to your own things like that could also be plagiarism right Hariette: yeah Yoshi: |-ooohh Hariette: it's ag gain there's a fine line between Yoshi: yeah Hariette: because we ??? about modifying you think 'ooh is that really plagiarism' Yoshi: |- and graphs and things like that ya that's right Hariette: yeah an an and maybe um um yeah um but um there's other things someone was saying um things if you're taking things off the internet or if you're taking things from television um broadcasts or film or something I mean that constitutes plagiarism as well Yoshi: you mean like actually taking people's um quotes and Hariette: mm but not but not saying that I that um so-and-so on this program said this you know Yoshi: yeah Hariette: or taking things I think I think I think the big worry for a lot of people being is the internet people taking stuff from websites Yoshi: you mean pictures and and Hariette: not just pictures but like ac actual written pieces and then not acknowledging it Yoshi: oh that's the problem with internet because internet is sort of like a broad thing and Hariette: mm Yoshi: there there are no laws governing internet Hariette: yet [laugh] Yoshi: and controlling so thing's like that is kind of hard Hariette: mm but I I think that's that's a problem that people are are now faced with and um that universities are trying to u- not just universities but various institutions are trying to come up with um ways of of of checking this you know so if you take something off the net and you who's going to know Yoshi: |- but people Hariette: you see but this is a good essay wah ha Yoshi: but people can actually sue you you know Hariette: if they yeah Yoshi: |- they can Hariette: yeah well that's the i- that's that's whole thing about plagiarism because they own that ????? Yoshi: |- they own that phrase do they Hariette: |- th th they own that idea yeah so Yoshi: |- so I guess um then again on internet it depends on the internet the individual is sort of like a free free thinker or something like that Hariette: mm Yoshi: he might just allow the person to you know 'go ahead, use my idea' I don't see anything wrong with that Hariette: |- mm Yoshi: but some people like might might get offended by people actually taking their stuff out Hariette: |- mm Yoshi: and and claiming it as their own you see so then again depends on the individuals I think Hariette: mm Yoshi: for internet but I think it's very hard to govern internet I mean if you were to impose laws and stuff like that there'd be a whole lot of it's sort of like slow down the information super highway or something Hariette: |- yeah I don't know it's it's again it's b like it's like it's a sort of area that's really hard to to think about wha- what we should do I mean in terms like this university if people are p- people are people are are pla plagiarising is that a verb plagiarise if people are plagiarising Yoshi: [short laugh] Hariette: work from other sources and then passing it off as their own and then getting certain marks and then getting a degree but it's not really their own work I know that's a that's a very severe example well that's whe- that's what the same as the internet where they're getting information from either from from book sources or the internet or whatever they're the whole point about it is it's they're not actually getting the grades based on their work Yoshi: yeah I get what you mean but I guess um then again it's a fine line I mean if you'd had just do your degree chances are you'll be sort of regurtitating someone else's work or something or doing labs so forth Hariette: |- highly likely Yoshi: for for for for my science course it's actually we're actually doing things that other people have done Hariette: mm Yoshi: sort of repeating it learning how to do it Hariette: that that's the thing learning how to do it Yoshi: |- yeah but when you actually go into a settings a higher you know level of education like Honours or something like that that's where the creativity comes in Hariette: mm Yoshi: |- that's where you know you actually do something which no one has done it before try it out and if it works you write about it and cite references like Hariette: mm Yoshi: this person did this before but I modified it so inadvertently it's Hariette: |- [laugh] Yoshi: it's not really your idea but then again it's modified??? Hariette: yeah but it is Yoshi: |- yeah Hariette: it's I guess it's your interpretation you've reworked someone else's Yoshi: correct Hariette: someone else's experiment Yoshi: yeah Hariette: and either foundthat they cheated [both laugh] or yours or yours worked and theirs didn't Yoshi: yeah Hariette: or something like that Yoshi: something like that yeah Hariette: |- yeah yeah I I yeah I don't know sort of but anyway we're supposed to come up with a set of guidelines Yoshi: guidelines OK let's see Hariette: to give information about plagiarism so we sort we still haven't really decided what we think it is mmmm well Yoshi: we could inform students of what plagiarism is Hariette: yeah Yoshi: and Hariette: what it is Yoshi: so like draw some draw up some rules as to when when you write something you have to cite references Hariette: yeah Yoshi: you know if you take this phrase from somewhere or this idea from somewhere you have to put it in sort of like give your reference and actually put numbers on it Hariette: mm Yoshi: to tell you where it came from Hariette: yeah Yoshi: which paper so people when they read your article or something they can actually go back Hariette: mm Yoshi: refer back to this articles and 'oh ya this guy wrote it and he's he's trying to come up with something creative' Hariette: mm Yoshi: students trying to sort of like criticise or Hariette: mm Yoshi: you know Hariette: I think sometimes I think I thi- and I think I think that's right and I think also we need to explain wh- why why plagiarism's so um such a bad thing and um what was I going to say oh yeah that Yoshi: [laugh] Hariette: I had a thought I had a thought and then when I started talking it sort of went and hid again um and I won't come back anyway [both laugh] um yeah so I think we need to define what plagiarism is a- and why it's important oh yeah that's right for um part of the university it pa- part of your learning is um this this this finding of information and discussing information Yoshi: yeah Hariette: I mean that's part of it that's that's all part of the learning process so and I think you need to do be able to do that and to say that 'I can use research findings and I can find information and I can use other people's research to back up what I my idea is' Yoshi: yep Hariette: you know because sometimes someone else's you you come up with the same idea anything that fi- you know 13 hundred other people Yoshi: |- [laugh] Hariette: every oh well it's such a ?? but you can maybe just pick one or two important ones and Yoshi: yeah Hariette: mm or say 'oh well he thinks so too' Yoshi: because things like um you know things like literature reviews and things like that Hariette: |- mm Yoshi: and just things that actually looking at other people's work and sort of like commenting on it sort of Hariette: |- yeah Yoshi: if you were to write in a way which you do not cite you probably plag plagiarising Hariette: yeah Yoshi: something like that Hariette: plagiarise Yoshi: [both laugh] I don't know if that's the correct word or not Hariette: I don't ??? yeah I I think so alright so we'd have to oh um first we'll think about what it is Yoshi: yep Hariette: and umm why it's bad because many people probably don't have a problem with it in a moral sense I think Yoshi: they don't see anything wrong with it it's not exactly like cheating in an examination or something it's more like Hariette: |-mm it's close though isn't it Yoshi: it's it's close but it's ah I don't know Hariette: yeah it's hard it's one of those sort of it's it's kind of close to cheating cause you're really it's really not your idea but on the other hand maybe you've got more chance of getting away with it Yoshi: yeah probably so then again it depends the person might might sort of like cause classmates its well just Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: Hariette: Yoshi: